Please offer your comments regarding Cuban's presentation of two "good" schools that reflect very different structures. In this article, traditionalists and progressives offer us separate lenses through which we might consider what role schools ought to play in our society. Here are a few questions that might help guide your responses:
1. Do you think Cuban's criteria for judging schools might ever conflict?
2. Can you add to Cuban's 'list' of "democratic values"?
3. Consider the current social milieu, that being a national presidential election. Is it possible that both these schools can substantively advocate for democratic values? Might there be an intractable difference regarding the interpretation of democratic values?
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You know reading this article made me think about myself as a teacher and I really want to believe that I doing both styles of schools within my classroom. I know that it can be a challenge to blend all the things that we need to do within our days, weeks and months...however I hope that I can give my students the social, emotional and academics that will help them become active members of our society.....I can't see why Cuban;s way of judging schools may conflict..however everything these days seems to have a contradiction....I think that it is quite amazing that at these two different schools that not many of them have huge turn over in staff or students...that really shows that something is really clicking in these schools.....I think that a BIG Issue this year will be money for all schools...that there will be a loss in funding and some schools will have to make big sacrifices....I think this is what question two is looking for....Looking at both these schools and all the discussions we have been having in our school about the future of education part of me thinks that school B would have the opportunity to really shine..with all this talk about wanted students to be able to become thinkers, to solve problems....there are still people that think that the traditional schools are best for our students..however I don't believe that they see things in the way that our students do today with all the technology and other electronics.....I think that many people may have huge different opinions about the democratic values.......I feel this is why in this economic time passing school budgets will become a challenge...
ReplyDeleteErin's comment about trying to do both styles is what seems like differentiation to me, at least to a degree. The satisfaction of staff in each school might stem from the concrete focus of each school: there is no question in either model Cuban describes of the school's goals. Knowing the "basic purpose" of your school is critical to have all there on board. Democratic behaviors values and attitudes need to be integrated into everything that is done in the classroom. In Cuban's 3rd PP, second column, page 3 he states his criteria for determining good schools...I think he forgot one overpowering presence in goal satisfaction: federal government. And the feds. may feel very differently about the goals of a school and success criteria than the school or district. Working in an "identified" school, we all need to temper what we do with how we can satisfy the NCLB requirements that are not now being met in our school. And is this democratic? When the Federal Govt. says "this must be done" but districts don't have the funds (special education, homeless child acts, etc.) to fund those demands? Cuban has also said "Parents have chosen..." (2nd PP, 2nd column, page 1)What happens when a public school has chosen a particular direction for goal statisfaction that some families in that school district might not agree with and HAVE no choice (except private school which isn't a choice for many)? You can see I have a few questions about this article but I wonder how much could be developed/corrected/improved with strong commmunication and real, honest collaboration.
ReplyDeleteMy first reaction to the article was anger at the author. Could he really be so blind and naive? NO PUBLIC SCHOOL in America, labeled progressive or traditional is truly either, rather there is a continuum. If a school was truly progressive there would be chaos and anarchy. Students would have no real purpose or goals. Students need some direction, some rules, they need to be taught, not just given opportunities to discover. On the other hand, the label I would give a truly traditional school is a school of BRAINWASH! We often hear about these school in Brazil where the Rebels raid villages and steal kids to brainwash them into becoming Rebels themselves. I hope my classroom is neither of these but somewhere in the middle of the continuum (on the more traditional side). I feel strongly that both styles are important but that children need to learn the basics before they can receive freedom. Without structure children get into trouble. Isn't this why we confine babies in playpens because they do not have the structure to be on their own. More freedom can be given in the classroom as students get older until past college students take the initiative and learn on their own.
ReplyDeleteI can see how Cuban's criteria for a good school could conflict. Parents may be happy with what is happening within the school, but students may not. The school may be meeting the goals set for themselves but not those set by the government, and since there is so many debates over true "democratic values" I can't see how under these criterion any school could be considered good to everyone!
Cuban’s criteria for judging schools will almost always conflict. One criterion for judging “good” schools is to find out if parents, staff, and students are satisfied with what occurs in the school. People are just too different and varied in their personal beliefs and values for total harmony to ever exist under one school roof. I feel we will always have a handful of disgruntled parents who don’t think their child is getting what they need from the school system. Not to put blame only on parents there will surely be a handful of staff that blame the parents and/or students for all their unachieved goals.
ReplyDeleteThen there are students who try as we might, will never achieve the goals set forth by the school regardless of those goals. An example would be a student who reads and writes at the 2nd grade level but is a senior in high school. Clearly this student will not be able to achieve the academic goals or full graduation requirements at the top level but the student could still graduate and become a good citizen.
Then on the other side of the fence we have the students who become addicted to drugs and entwined into a life of crime. Clearly these students are not good citizens.
I like Cuban’s list of democratic values. The only thing that comes to mind is civic duty. Students (and adults) should learn to help others in need, how to vote, and doing things like volunteering at a local food shelf or mission. I feel volunteering is a strong civic value that is important and one that gets ignored frequently. Volunteering doesn’t have to be a daily commitment, it can be as easy as volunteering to help a neighbor rake leaves or bring a meal to a family.
Even as I write about volunteering as a democratic value I can hear the voices of others who have a different set of values. I think there will always be an intractable difference regarding the interpretation of democratic values. That is what makes America unique. We are the great melting pot and families can choose to pursue their own dreams and values, so who are we to say what is the ultimate set of democratic values?
After reading the comments of Michelle, Erin, and Nancy I realize that I am not the only person angered and dazed over this article. Like Michelle I know my classroom is much more traditional because like Nancy we are so aware of NCLB. I do try to do some progressive activities with students (Math carnival with Michelle last year) but even that was difficult because our students are so used to being told what to do.
Many of us today still want clearly defined goals and rubrics when asked to complete an assignment because let's face it when given cart blanch (sp?) we get as nervous as a cat in a room full of rockers!
The title states that this is a tale of Two Schools-should it be stated that way? Both philosophies should blend together and create a well rounded atmosphere where the child can feel successful and safe. I love to walk in classrooms where I see children having a wonderful time learning and growing, but also knowing that there are boundaries set for them. I know we all have a stressful agenda due to testing, etc., but I also know it is our responsibilty as educators to provide an environment that is both stimulating and safe.
ReplyDeleteI can agree with what you are all saying...there is some much to consider and it's hard enough to get it all done....plus have people checking in and testing our students all the time...talk about being stressed out and now this guy Cuban wants to tell us what good schools are ...is it not all community goals to have a good successfull school...I guess thats all I can say right now.....
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Nancy’s statement about a school picking a purpose and sticking with it. It seems that are school’s action plans vary from year to year and at best are superficial. I also agree with the role of the Feds. It is challenging to design good curriculum when so many people, with different agendas and priorities have a say in what occurs. Especially at the community level. There is such a diverse economical and educational background of parents, it is hard to come to consensus. There is always going to be conflict.
ReplyDeleteTaking the criteria Cuban states from both “good schools” and blending them together would probably be the best. So often we tend to jump on one band wagon or the other. Of all of the articles I have read to date, this has been the most difficult to respond to. I am not sure if it is the topic or the author.
I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that no public school in America can be labeled as either traditional or progressive. I have had the experience to teach in what I consider both kinds of schools. I would consider Montessori schools truly progressive. As the author states, these kinds of schools may offer many choices and individidual freedoms to create and learn, yet it is within reason and regard for authority. The Montessori school that I worked in did not experience "monarchy," because although learning was centered around individual freedom, a respect for authority and self-discipline was emphasized throughout the school, much like the author stated.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the author in the fact that there is no such thing as a "good" or "better" school when comparing traditional vs. progressive schools. The criteria for a "good" school is just what the author says: Are parents, staff, and students satisfied? Is the school achieving the goals that they have set for learning?
Adam and I were having a conversation about both of the articles that we had to read for class. We agreed that there are three different types of schools. There are traditional, progressive, and we thought a mix of the two styles. I feel that the article boiled down, in the debate of which is better, to one paragraph. Good schools are determined by the kinds of parent evolvement, teachers, and is the school achieving its goals. To me if a school is producing productive people to add to society the school is doing its job. As a teacher, especially in math, I am constantly telling my students that there is more than one way to solve a particular problem. Does there have to be a better kind of school?
ReplyDeleteOf course the political factors will play into the kind of schools are out there. Has anyone worked for a school board that was better or worse than another? Even at that level politics can cripple a school or help it thrive based on the support or lack of support that is given.
I’m going to agree with A Brua. I think it is perfectly okay that there are many kinds of schools in our country – progressive, traditional, and the somewhere in betweens. I think we will always see this and it’s okay. I think conflict comes when families are looking for one type of school, but the school in their district is opposite of what they deem “good.” These are usually often the people who grumble, grumble, grumble and eventually move their family because the “school” isn’t doing for their child, what they believe it is supposed to be doing. This may be less of an issue in a city where there is more school choice.
ReplyDeleteI believe is it possible that both schools can substantively advocate for democratic values.
In regard to individual freedom and respect for authority, I think School A would say they encourage student and parent input. This is done, however, in a more controlled manner than in School B. I think the parents in this school would say they are open-minded to different opinions, the respect other’s values, they treat others decently and fairly, regardless of background, and they make a commitment to talk through problems, reason, deliberate, and try to openly arrive at compromise. The degree to which this all happens, of course, is relative to what they believe is right for them and for their children.
I think School B people would say School A doesn’t advocate for democratic values.
Basically, I think School A people would be critical of School B’s philosophy and School B would be critical of School A’s philosophy. It’s a natural reaction. But is it right? It’s definitely judgmental.
I think we need to get over the idea that one school is better than another. What we need to understand is that the type of school that works for one person may not work for another. I always admire parents who choose to send their children to schools that are right for their child. They don’t have the one school fits all mentality. Maybe one child fits into the traditional school and the other child in a more progressive atmosphere. Kudos to those who truly know their children, who care more that their children are in an environment that works for them and not in an environment that necessarily fits the parent’s particular life values. They seek what is best for their children because they want their children to be successful.
Schools are as diverse as the people in them. That, to me, is a good thing. How unexciting life would be if we all valued the same educational system. What is important is that schools offer curriculum that allows students to grow academically and socially in appropriate ways. Whether that is from a traditional stand or progressive stand, doesn’t really matter.
Ed and Adam, I am in agreement with you. I think schools need to focus on graduating productive, healthy young adults. Schools need to determine how that will happen and what is right for them and their particular community.
ReplyDeleteMy question is - Where does this "which school is better" idea come from? It drives me crazy. I didn't know we were in a contest. I think it is just plain jealousy. Why can't we just support one another and understand that different doesn't necessarily mean better or worse?